In this episode of the Let’s Talk Tri Delta podcast, CEO Mindy Tucker, Southern Methodist, sits down with 2026 Woman of Achievement AnnaMaria DeSalva from Alpha Mu Chapter at the College of William & Mary. A seasoned CEO, chairperson and board leader, AnnaMaria shares her journey through some of the most transformative moments in business and offers insight into leadership, resilience and creating meaningful impact.
What does it take to lead through change, tackle tough challenges and still find joy along the way? In this episode, AnnaMaria shares how embracing “360-degree leadership” has shaped her career and life—from navigating complex business challenges and building confidence to prioritizing mental agility, personal growth and overall well-being.
She also reflects on her Tri Delta experience, what it means to be named a Woman of Achievement and the lessons she’s learned throughout her incredible journey. Plus, expect a few fun surprises, gain some memorable life advice and hear why AnnaMaria believes sports might just be the ultimate metaphor for life.
[Leading Through Change—2026 Woman of Achievement AnnaMaria DeSalva]
This transcript was created using automated technologies and may contain errors.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Let's Talk Tri Delta podcast. I'm so glad that you're here today. My name is Mindy Tucker, and I have the privilege of serving as Tri Delta CEO. Each year, we recognize a group of extraordinary women who exemplify our values and are really paving the way for the next generation. And today, I'm excited to introduce you to another one of our 2026 Women of Achievement. AnnaMaria DeSalva is from our Alpha Mu chapter at William & Mary. The list of things I'm going to talk about with her is long. She's so accomplished an experienced CEO, a chairperson and board leader with a record of value creation across Fortunec100 companies and global consultancies and in complex governance environments. She is known for leading through inflection points and change where risk and opportunity converge, which is going to be so fun to talk about, I think, today. Most recently, she served as the global chairman of the Burson Group. Prior to that, she was global chairman and CEO of Hill and Knowlton, one of the foremost strategic communication firms in the world. So impressive. Her career has included some senior leadership roles during really historic transformations at companies like Pfizer and DuPont. She has corporate board service in her background. There's just so many things we're going to be able to talk about. I'm so glad that she is here today. We're going to get to know her career, but also a little bit about her Tri Delta experience. So, AnnaMaria, welcome to the podcast. Mindy, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This has been something I've been looking forward to. Yeah, it's going to be fun. We had the chance to meet at an event in New York City where we got to know some of our Tri Deltas who were in New York. Today, I'm excited to share your story with the rest of Tri Delta, our listeners out there. Let's go back to the beginning again and talk a little bit about how you ended up at William & Mary. Well, I was 13 years old and I was on a school trip. And like many, I think like many schools in the Northeast or in the mid-Atlantic states, you know, going to Washington, D.C. and Williamsburg, Colonial Williamsburg is like a rite of passage when you're 13 years old, right? Yeah, the middle school trip, yes. Yeah, so it was, but it was pretty magical. And I remember arriving in Williamsburg and just walking down what we call Dog Street, Duke of Gloucester Street, the main strip, headed right into campus. And I was like, wow, this is where I want to go to school, you know, and that seems sort of superficial because it is so beautiful and there is so much grace on that campus, you know, but there's something about the spirit of an institution like that. It was founded in 1693 by King William and Queen Mary as a university for the colonies. And, you know, that spirit and that vision, you know, here we are 333 years later and that. spirit of that institution just keeps renewing and I think I just felt that I saw it I felt it quickly and I chose it right then and there yeah I love that did you um did you go into college knowing what you wanted to do in life or what your major was going to be or did you figure that out after you get there yeah I've kind of figured it out I mean you know I had um as a kid I was drawn to two domains. I was, as a youngster, as a really young kid, I was really into science, the sciences and medicine. I was very attracted to those fields. And then as I got deeper into school, I really came to love the humanities. And then unfortunately, I hit high school chemistry and got a little intimidated. You know, it was really too bad. Like I really, you know, this is a great point about women in STEM, you know, because you can't give up that easily, right? Right. And there's a red thread through my career in science. So it was interesting to me that that happened when I was so young. Because when I was in college, I went into the humanities. And I was an English major and a history minor. And I took every writing class that the school offered. And I did lots of other things, too. And I was extremely attracted to business. And I was trying to really imagine a career in business with my English major. And there were some people who were very supportive and thought that was a great idea. And there were some people who thought I was delusional, you know. And then what really happened was, is I did find that intersection between communication and writing and the humanities and business. And that was in corporate communication, strategic communication, public affairs, public relations. And by the time I hit that space as an intern, it just all came together. Yeah, I can see how that blends. Having come from that world myself, public affairs and PR, I can see how that early, that skill set would sort of come together in that nice melding for that kind of career. Talk about how you ended up in Tri Delta. Oh, well, you know, freshman year, in those days we rushed. Do we still use that term rush? We call it recruitment, but you call it. Okay. Thank you. It's hard to keep track over time. It is. Okay. So historically, then we called it rush. And by the time I got to William & Mary as a freshman, I was still only 17 years old. I was a very young freshman. And it was exciting to participate in rush. But it was also I just didn't know what to expect, you know, and. And it exceeded my expectations because the sororities were very strong at Lamb & Mary and Tri Delta was arguably the strongest. Some would say that others were, I'm sure. But there was just something extraordinary about Tri Delta. And I don't know if you've been, Mindy, I can't remember if you've ever been to William & Mary. If you haven't, I should take you there. I would love to go visit. You're painting a picture that makes me want to start tomorrow to go to school there. But, you know, in sorority court. The Tri Delta house is right at noon. It's like right there at the head of the court. And so you walk into into sorority court and, you know, there's this lovely house with with, you know, the women were up front and it was extremely welcoming. So I found lots of wonderful women and community at other sororities. It just speaks so well of William and Mary. But I just really connected at Tri Delta and those girls were so brilliant. But they were also incredibly kind and gracious and welcoming. And somehow through that process, I sort of found my people. And I found them both established sisters, people who are already a part of the chapter. But my cohort going through that experience with me was also just a special network. And we're all still friends. And, you know, here we are all these decades later and we talk regularly. You know, we have a group chat. I'm going on vacation with one of them in June. Like it's just it was friendships for a lifetime. Yeah, that's great. Talk about leadership in the chapter and maybe how leadership roles impacted you or how you might have gained confidence in that time in your life. Yeah, well, you know, I do think it's a very uplifting and reinforcing experience. So it's so important for young girls and women, you know, to have that community and to have that reinforcement and opportunity to build connection and confidence. And, you know, that was a great experience for me. It was incredibly uplifting. to be a part of that community. And there were lots of examples of some of the women who were a couple of years ahead of me, who were leading and doing great things, both at school and with their majors and beginning to explore professions, but also leading within the chapter. And so I had close proximity to great examples, which was very, very important. And I did take on some leadership roles. I think my senior year, I was, this is probably also an outdated term. Okay. Okay. But I was, I was pledge trainer. I was, I was the one who kind of took on the new group. Developing them. And helped develop them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I know. Every, all of these things have different words over time. I mean, you've been in public affairs and PR long enough to know things, you know, the words have to evolve over time. Yeah. But yeah, that's how I've heard it. I've heard that position called a number of things. Yes, I'm sure. You know, I'm sure. But the other important, I mean, as you well know, because you now lead Tri Delta nationally, you know, there's a big service orientation. I think that is also really important at that stage of life, you know, to basically say, yes, we are together. And yes, we have these values. And yes, we have these systems and programs. so that we can enjoy our collegiate life. But we are engaged in the community and we are engaged nationally and we are thinking about how to uplift and strengthen women. And we have a national advocacy and charitable arm that is really focused on children with medical issues. You know, it's a great foundation to have a more complete perspective on how to live a fulfilling life. Yeah, it really does give you so many, I think, broad skills and makes you think about broad things as you head out into the world as an adult. Let's talk about that time where you headed out into the world as an adult. What did your early career look like? worked in big corporations as what we would now call like a chief of staff for an international executive. You know, so she was working with someone who ran the international division of a really big company. And she was multilingual. And so she was very well traveled. And she said to me my junior year, she was like, I think you'd be really good in public relations. And I'm like, what's public relations? I mean, we did not have a PR major at William & Mary. You know, so, but that was enough for me to start like really looking into it. And I got myself an internship at Ogilvy, Ogilvy and Mather. And that was truly extraordinary experience. And they were so wonderful. That team at Ogilvy and Mather that summer, they gave me every opportunity. They didn't treat me like a college kid. They treated me like an adult and they gave me, you know, really challenging assignments. And I kept going back at breaks. I loved it so much that whenever I was home in the New York metropolitan area where I grew up, I'd go into the city and work a couple of days. And then they brought me on after I graduated. And what was interesting was that they saw my interest in science and medicine. And at the time, the healthcare sector was starting to really invest in communication. So it was an era when biotech and pharmaceuticals and big healthcare companies realized that they had an opportunity to communicate much more effectively and directly with consumers. And so it was wonderful for me to get back to my interest in science and medicine. And as you know, because you come from the realm of communication, to communicate about something, you have to understand it. So I really had to go deep. to make sure that I was communicating and creating communication strategies and content that was responsible and effective and true to the science and that my clients and their lawyers and their regulatory teams were happy with. And it was so great for me because it reconnected me to science and medicine that I almost went back to a post-baccalaureate program to go to medical school. Yeah, it was it was that it was that great. And then what happened was is I got recruited away to go to Bristol Myers Squibb. And I was still pretty young. I was in my 20s, still like mid 20s, mid to late 20s. And that was such an exciting assignment at Bristol Myers Squibb that I just couldn't even imagine going back to school. I just wanted to continue doing what I was doing. So, yeah. So I think one of the things I think is so fascinating about the work you've done and having a little bit of insight into it is you do have to get smart really fast on a lot of different topics and you have to be able to pivot the moment. Okay, now it's this, this is the pressing issue and I need to learn how this works and how to explain it. How do you think you develop that skill and how have you seen that? Does that still serve you today in the work that you do? Oh, yes. And thank you. And, you know, in half my career, as you pointed out, has been more in the advisory and consulting space. And when you're when you're consulting, that is a you have to have that as a superpower, like you have to be able to get into unfamiliar environments and translate it very quickly to be valuable and to carry the insight and the ability to get the work done and to take it to a new place. So, yeah, you really do have to develop your mind. and have that mental agility and that intellectual ability. And that comes from effort. You know, that just comes from logging the time. I mean, taking it back to my undergraduate education, I think that being an English major was actually quite useful because I went deep. You know, I wasn't just sort of skipping along reading novels. I mean, I did an honors thesis. I worked really substantively. you know, to the point of, you know, I remember my honors thesis, my honors thesis advisor really wanted me to publish my thesis as a book, you know, and to me, that was like, crazy. I was just like, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine doing it. But I had done such heavy lifting and gone so deep. And it was great for my mind. It was it was great to teach me the discipline of, of really doing some very hard work and, you know, harder, doing more work and deeper work than maybe even I needed to do. And I remember the first time I got into a flow state, I think it was working on that thesis. And I remember sitting down like on a Saturday at noon. And all of a sudden lifting my head and realizing it was 6 p.m. and just having absolutely no idea where the time went. It was like I time traveled, you know, but it was because of the zone I got into with that work. And once I had that muscle and understood it, I was able to do that subsequently and later in my career. And during I would say during the first 15 years of my career, I had to do that a lot. Like those are really hard, complex issues I was working on. And it wasn't just the science and the medicine. it was also the operating environment it was you know the financial issues it was um it was, there were a lot of things that I had to learn and to educate myself on, but I had the comfort and confidence of knowing I could get into that. I can get into that flow state, you know, get into difficult content and get it done. I also think there's some element of like, you have to really enjoy what you're doing to get in a flow state. There has to be some passion around it that enables you to get there. Even if the work is hard. There's got to be some enjoyment to it for you to spend everything else and dig that deep into it, I think. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And that is, you know, it's funny because later in my life and career, I realized that, you know, as a person, you have all these dimensions, like you have your mind and your intellectual life and you have, you know, your body and your health and your physical life and you have your spiritual life and emotional life. And, and to be totally integrated, happy person, you have to, you know, commit to each dimension and activate it. And I really reached a point in my young career where I realized I was living so much in my head. You know what I mean? Like I was just, I was just because I was enjoying it and because the work was demanding and it was, it wasn't, it wasn't intellectually challenging. And I was, I was, so focused on my, on what I was doing with my mind. And that was when I got like much more into fitness and also just made a concerted effort to, to, you know, really make sure I was, you know, not, not just working and tackling the intellectual challenges. So anyway, but I think, I think just to answer your original question, you know, that was sort of how I learned to do it. And, and it's different now, isn't it? And it will be different going forward. because we have more tools and we have, you know, more ways with AI to tackle content quickly and to go into difficult topics and do really difficult research at extraordinary speed. So, you know, and I, and I'm like an AI power user now, you know, but, but it doesn't, it doesn't change the way that I work. If that's. You still have to have that. work time to be so the the best work's going to still come out of that diligent time absolutely absolutely yeah um what do you think your first leadership test was you know um it was it was right around the time it was right before I went to Bristol Myers Squibb that was I was about around 26 years old I guess so I was just really a couple years out of school about five years out of school and I was I was managing a team and that was my first like larger team of people at different levels, including some senior people and in a higher stakes environment, like a higher stakes commercial environment. And at that time, my mother had suddenly been diagnosed with an advanced cancer. And, you know, so for her, from her, from her diagnosis to her eventual death, it was only 13 months and that, that 13 months sort of coincided with that role that I was in. And so that was, it was a lot at that age. And, and because I was working in healthcare and because I was working eventually in that process and a lot in cancer in my family, I had a larger role. Like I just kind of had a larger role in her, in her care and in some of the decision-making. But the point being is, I really grew up. I mean, I really had to understand how do you be totally effective at work and how do you not let anyone down, you know, and how do you continue to have energy and presence when like the biggest problem in your life to date is also happening at the same time, you know, and when you have that sense of, you know, you're scared and grief stricken and just dealing with, you know, something of that emotional consequence. And, but, but we came through it and, you know, I came through it and I was a stronger, better leader and, and more generous leader probably as a result of having had that experience and, and, and, you know, battle tested at that point, you know, and there were other battles waiting for me, you know, that, that tested me subsequently, but, but that was. I gained some stature as a leader, I think, because I had to lead myself, I had to lead my family, and I had to lead my team. And I had to lead my life and my career and my decision-making through that process. There was a lot of change going on. Yeah, I think that's such a good reminder for anyone who's in a leadership position. It's not just what's going on at work. It's all the pieces of your life that form how you show up as a leader. I mean, I go through that. I'm certainly still learning that and traversing that. you know, that challenge. But I think we all do. I think that's so important for people to know is it's really 360. It's not just how you show up at work. It's all these other things impacting how you show up at work. Absolutely. And, you know, leaders are leaders. You know, many people will make the point that leadership and leaders are shaped through adversity. Yes. Yeah. A little bit of uncomfortableness helps you grow. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Did you always aspire to be in the C-suite or envision yourself there? Or how did that, when did that sort of become clear to you that that's where you were headed? Yeah, I mean, I never had that declared goal. Like I was never, I didn't come out of college or work the first few years saying, I want to be a CEO or I want to be in the C-suite. That really didn't enter my mind until much later. but I always wanted to have an impact. Like I wanted to make a difference. That was my, that was my motivator. And then eventually I came to see and realize because I had amazing leaders in my life, you know, that was the great thing about my young career is that yes, I had certain mentors and sponsors, but I also had in my, in my view, I had these transformational leaders. who were doing extraordinary things. And even if I didn't have that deep, a direct relationship, they were still influencing me and showing me what an impact great leaders have, positive impact. So I think that eventually it became clear to me that I was building enough range and enough depth and that I had enough tools in the toolbox to lead in a way that I could expand my impact. I love that. Let's talk a little bit about, you've managed to do a lot of change and challenge even. Talk about your time at Pfizer and DuPont and the change that was happening there and maybe what you walked out from those experiences with. Yeah, it's so interesting. I will make one observation, which is there are patterns in your life that you don't see. until you get some distance from them. And when I look back, that was a decade for me, five years at Pfizer and five years at DuPont. And that was really not by design at all. And when you look at those experiences side by side, you see how similar they were. And that was a decade of my career that was really dedicated towards very consequential transformation. And both those companies were, are. science-driven leaders. science and technology driven leaders, and they each were having their own sort of existential moment, you know, which is, yeah, you know, and it's, it's, it's perhaps a little slight hyperbole, but, but not, not by much because it's, it's adapt or die, you know, I mean, it's. Well, and I can't think of two industries that are under constant pressure. from the outside, constantly in the spotlight and constantly having to evolve to compete. Yeah. And these are great enterprises, great global institutions. And they each had to determine how to create long-term value going forward and how to connect their capabilities to the marketplace in the way that mattered the most in the present, but also in the future. And how to have how to be a sustainable engine of innovation. I mean, it's a huge cycle of investment. You have to be, it's a flywheel of success and return and reinvestment. And so you have to really be confident that you are creating an engine that will enable that perpetual cycle of innovation. and value creation. And you really have to know what you're doing. So as a management team and a board, that is high risk and high consequence work. And so I was lucky to be at both institutions at those times and working with some really great people who had the courage and the wherewithal to take on transformations of that scale. And I think, so I learned a lot about long-term value creation and the innovation imperative and what trade-offs and choices, difficult choices have to be made to ensure the ability to innovate over the long term. And I learned, you know, how intense that process is in terms of the consequences of those decisions and how an enterprise really works through those consequences. And of course, in my role in corporate affairs, you know, thinks through the stakeholder complexity and, you know, really endeavors to ensure that we would take our stakeholders with us and minimize unnecessary problems and impacts, although disruption was inevitable, you know. So I think, you know, and it was very exciting, you know, at Pfizer, we were We were moving from being a classical pharmaceutical company focused on small molecules and through a merger, an acquisition of Wyeth, which was a company I knew well, and they had just amazing science, creating a completely different type of R&D engine with many more modalities, getting into many different platforms, technology platforms. that could create new types of treatments, breakthrough treatments, and approaches to disease using all of our new biological knowledge that were completely unprecedented. And thinking also ahead, having to look out to another horizon, looking out 10 or 20 years and thinking, what are the problems going to be in 10 or 20 years? And how do we make sure that this engine of innovation is positioned and ready? to participate in that world and to be delivering breakthroughs and cures in a decade's time. And Pfizer had been through a lot of M&A. It wasn't just the live acquisition. They had acquired Pharmacia. They had acquired Warner Lambert. There was so much unresolved change in the system that people were tired. And it's very hard to have company of inventors, and that's who the R&D team are. It's like they're scientists, and they are meant to invent and to innovate, but they have to actually really have the vision and the knowledge to put new things together that didn't exist before. And when they're tired and distracted, it's a tough environment. As a communicator, I really could feel that and see that. And I really wanted us to take approaches that would elevate people, uplift them, restore their sense of purpose and passion and confidence in the future. And because you're a communicator, I'm sure you can relate and understand that when you really try to do that, when you really try to storytell, connect people to their own stories and their own passion, link that to the enterprise strategy. and consolidate all that progress, it can be very powerful. And we did that in a different way at DuPont. We had different issues at DuPont, similar, but the DuPont situation was a bit different, but a similar commitment to employees, to communication. And what I learned is that even when you're going through these very disruptive transformations that are very threatening to people, You know, if you commit to that communication, you can actually improve trust and confidence. And, you know, at DuPont, we went through a very difficult proxy battle with an activist shareholder. We had a CEO transition. We merged with Dow, still the biggest industrial merger in history. And we merged with Dow in order to reset the combined portfolios so that we could go to market as three new public companies with a better value creation thesis across that entire portfolio. So this was a big multi-year process, highly disruptive. And as we did all that with the new CEO, you know, our scores for trust and confidence were higher than they had ever been. And it was amazing to all of us, but it's also very reassuring and should be reassuring to everyone that even when you're going through, you know, chaotic and disruptive and challenging chapters, that there's always an opportunity, you know, to engage people and to bring them with you in the right way. Right. So important too. Just so important. What shifted for you when you entered the boardroom versus being? on the management team? You know, that is always such an important transition for every first-time board member. And of course, the most important thing is to understand is that the role is stewardship. The role is, you know, ensuring, again, getting back to this point about long-term value creation. But at a board level, that is really what your fiduciary role is. And typically, what you focus on as a board member is strategy, the appropriate management of risk, and frankly, conversion of risk to growth opportunity, and very critically, leadership. And making sure that the company has the right leadership and that there is great succession planning, especially for the CEO role, because the management team is running the company. And the management team is the team on the field. And the board has to support that team and have confidence in that team. But the board is not running the company. At the same time, you know, governance is increasingly a performance system. And it's changing quite a bit. And it's fascinating. me because the pace of change and the pace of new information, it's just so dynamic and everyone is operating in so much uncertainty in so many ways right now and really have been since the pandemic. And as a result, the cadence, the way the boards work and the availability of board members and the ability to flex into new information and be agile as a board and really cohere as a board and support management. It's not just event-driven anymore. It's not just like, okay, you have your quarterly meetings or you have your meeting cadence. You have to be in a kind of athletic position all the time and engaged all the time, but you're still not running the company. So it is this wonderful you know, role of stewardship, but it, as a first time board member, it takes a little while to understand that. And it takes a little while to find that zone. And, you know, you really have to be careful to resist the urge, you know, to get more involved than you should be. Dip into a different lane. Yeah. Yeah. But to be effective, to be an effective board member. And what I found is there was a way to operate in the boardroom. There was a way to support the CEO. There was a way to build a relationship with the chairman. There was a way to run committees. And there was a way to work at a lower altitude when the board wanted you to, you know, or when it was, you know, I got, we were in a particular situation when I was vice chairman at XPO Logistics, you know, where the board asked me to work more closely with management on a set of issues for a couple of months. You know, but it was clear to everyone and it was like an official, you know, delegation or designation. So, yeah, it's very important today. I think that, you know, boards have massive challenges and responsibilities, you know, as both risk and opportunity intensify and as the aperture of issues that are coming to the border is getting broader. Right. So in your roles, I don't, we haven't talked about this yet. So I don't know the answer to this question before it comes. I'm going to ask it. I assume often woman in a man's world and those two industries. What do you think the responsibility is for women who end up in these leadership positions to continue opening doors for other women? Well, it's always been important. And, you know, we can't have a false sense of security or an artificial sense of progress. There has been progress. And it's amazing to see women having such visibly important leadership roles and having so much impact. And that should be recognized and celebrated. But we do know that women are trading across the leadership pipeline. And this was a very dramatic impact that was visible during the pandemic. But there have been other drivers of that attrition. And if you don't have enough women in the leadership pipeline, by the time it becomes time to choose your leaders, choose your CEOs and your CFOs and your CHROs and the other people, your business unit presidents and your board members, you have far fewer women to choose from. Yeah. There is a great organization, not the only one working on it, but there is an organization called Paradigm for Parity. And what I appreciate about them is that they've studied this, like they've actually done the work and they've worked with McKinsey and McKinsey's been doing some really good work on this. They have a study about women in the workplace every year that also dimensionalizes this. And so it's just the data show us it's a great reminder every year. that we do have to focus on this, that if we don't focus on this, we're going to pay the price in the future. Because when women are present in senior executive operating roles and on boards, results are better. I mean, it isn't like a social exercise. It is a value creation imperative. So we have to think about that. And by the way, the men are thinking about that too. It's not just women for women. The great leaders, whether they're women or men, are aware of this and they're working on it. But as women, we have an opportunity to just be even that much more aware and to make sure that it's happening. I love that you brought up Paradigm for Parity because it has a Tri-Delta connection. Oh, it does? Yeah. I don't know if you know this, but Sandy Beach Lynn, who was part of the group that founded that organization. Oh, interesting. Oh, okay. Yes. Well, Sandy, I see Sandy at certain governance conferences, corporate governance conferences, and we made the connection. She did that work with Ellen Coleman, who was the CEO who hired me to DuPont. So they are, you know, and that was how, because I was trying to help Ellen as they were getting Paradigm for Parity stood up and trying to provide a little bit of support when that was happening. Yeah. Yeah. Close connection. Yeah. So I'm going to shift gears a little bit. I've heard that you say that sports are a metaphor for life. I'm a big sports fan. And I think you're a big sports fan. So I'd love to know why you think sports is a metaphor for life. I mean, I think sport kind of compresses the whole human experience on the field. It's very illustrative to me. And I sort of see it and I take inspiration from it. And probably especially football. I've never played football except for occasionally touch football on the beach or something like that. But I grew up the men in my family were, you know, played and coached and, you know, just have enjoyed football, you know, every season for my entire life, you know. And so I've just enjoyed seeing in the game, you know, the pursuit of the first down to me is really symbolic of, you know, what we're all doing in the rest of our lives, you know, and then there are always these setbacks. conflicts and transgressions and and you know an extraordinary grace under pressure and sometimes the opposite and uh it's it's just um it's it's wonderful to be able to take inspiration from sport you know to see the patterns um and but then also to see people putting it all together the mental the physical you know the the the extraordinary teamwork and To me, it's very uplifting. I really feel like I learned something. The great athletes have always inspired me. It doesn't matter if you're an athlete or not. They just can inspire you to greatness. I love it. I love sports. I love a good sports story. I get everything. You get it. What was your reaction to being named a 2026 Woman of Achievement? I was, well, you remember, because we had the call and I was like knocked out. I was completely knocked out. And I was very surprised and very touched. And, you know, when I think about how important Tri Delta was for me as a as a collegiate woman, you know, it's just so meaningful that what was such a formative experience in the earliest stage of my adulthood, you know, would still be so meaningful and still give me this opportunity to really support other women. And I think that's the meaning of the recognition is it's an amplification opportunity. It's really, it's a chance to, you know,connect and consider and reflect and bring women together around this idea of living a full lifeand applying yourself in a way that creates impact for others. And, you know, to me, that's what it means. While, of course, I'm very flattered and honored, I just really want it to be something that is great for the Tri Delta community. And that gives me an avenue to give more. Well, I think it definitely does that. I think our women love learning about our women and the things that they've done and gaining inspiration from that. And the stories are always just amazingly terrific. I think people glean different things from each story. And so I assure you there's someone out there that's going to hear your story and be inspired by it and learn from it. And so I think you're, you're definitely giving back just by sharing your story with us. So I want to lighten it up a little bit. We're going to do a little lightning round here and just to get to know you a little bit better. So a couple of rapid fire questions. Are you an early bird or a night owl? I was born a night owl. And I am an ardent early bird now. You had to learn how to be the early bird, huh? Total early bird. Yes, absolutely. What was your first job you ever had? I was a beach tag inspector in Cape May Point, New Jersey. So I was the beach bouncer. I love it. Okay. Yeah, 15 years old and really enjoying my summer on the beach. Bouncer on the beach. Okay. What's one book you think every young leader should read? I think there's a really great bundle. Two books that would complement each other really nicely. It's a great time for graduation gifts. Doris Kearns Goodwin's Leadership in Turbulent Times, which is about Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Lincoln. And LBJ, Lyndon B. Johnson, and the formative experiences that enabled them, you know, their leadership journey through adversity and that enabled them to become, you know, great political and institutional leaders and presidents. And the complement to that would be the alchemist, which is really more about, you know, your personal legend and your personal journey and your personal courage. Interesting. I love you dropped another Tri Delta there, Doris Kearns Goodwin. I love that. Oh, is she? Yes. You're doing great. That's amazing. Oh, can we, can we get her to the conference or something? She spoke at convention two years ago. She was. Oh, really? No, well, I'm sure we have it somewhere we can share with you. She's true. Okay, good. Yeah. What is one word you would use to describe yourself? Joyful. Joyful. Oh, I love that. All right. And we'll end on a sports question. Would you rather be the wide receiver, the quarterback or the coach? At this point, I am a career coach for sure. But I will tell you that I get I get like adrenaline from watching the great wide receivers. And, you know, it's the it's the one time I wish I had been born a boy and could play football is when I watch some of those like, you know, lifetime great wide receivers do what they do. Um, yeah. So maybe, maybe that's my, uh, you know, maybe the answer is wide receiver. I don't know. Wow. I love it. That's a great answer. Um, well, um, we have really, really enjoyed having you today. Um, this has been amazing. I love all the parts of your story. I think there's so many lessons, life lessons, business lessons. in here for our members. So thank you so much for joining us and being here. And we can't wait to celebrate you this summer at convention. Thank you, Mindy. I can't thank you enough. This was wonderful. And I'll see you in a few short weeks. Yes, yes. Well, what a thrill to have her here. I hope everybody enjoyed our podcast today. I hope you'll like, subscribe and rate the podcast. We have three stars in our crescent, but we love those five star ratings. So bring it on. Thanks for joining us. Until next time, Delta Love.